Daredevil Born Again

Today on Art of the Cut we speak with the editing team of Daredevil Born Again, including Stephanie Filo, ACE, Melissa Lawson-Cheung, and Cedric Nairn-Smith.

Stephanie has been on Art of the Cut to talk about her work on the film We Grown Now. And before that to discuss her Emmy and ACE-winning work on A Black Lady Sketch Show, her Emmy-nominated work on Dahmer: Monster - the Jeffrey Dahmer Story and History of the World Part II. Stephanie has also won an Emmy and a Peabody Award for her documentary editing work.

Melissa has been on Art of the Cut before for her editing of the film Mile 22, and for the TV series Outlander. She also edited the series Mr. Robot.

Cedric was an editor on Moon Knight and The Boys.

Welcome everybody. It’s so nice to have you all on Art of the Cut. Tell me a little bit about some restructuring that happened. From what I’ve heard, things moved around a little bit.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I came on to work on episodes one and two. We were trying to figure out how to start the show in the series to begin with, and with the strikes and the revamping of the show, and a new showrunner coming in we ended up shooting a new episode to help bring us into this new world with new people to bridge the original series to the new series and new characters and what had happened to old characters.

It ended up being a really smart move to make the second episode  become the second and third episode. I think they just wanted to have a bridge for the characters in the story itself that brought us into that world first. Episode one really helped do that.

Steph, what about you? When they started to change things around a little bit, did that new episode affect the way you were thinking about your episodes?

FILO: I think episode four is maybe the one that’s had the biggest overhaul, because when it started it was just a day-in-the-life. It was a slower paced episode. There are scenes that used to exist in there that don’t anymore. We really brought in different storylines.

There’s a scene with the Punisher in that episode that used to exist in one of Cedric’s episodes. Originally, it was about Muse.

So Matt would come in and he was talking about this serial killer that was terrorizing the city, and now in episode four he comes in with the shell casing that was at White Tiger’s crime scene.

So he’s talking about the fan boys that are using Punishers logo, which we later find out is the task force.

So episode four really was about threading that needle a little bit and trying to find elements that could connect to the rest of the episodes.

That’s huge, huge props to our writers, because they were able to find a way to connect all of these original episodes into what the show became.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: They had asked me if there was anything I felt was needed in that original first episode. And some of the things I mentioned ended up in the added first episode. It all really worked out for all of us and was we were hoping for.

In the very first episode, I thought it was interesting the idea that there’s this tragedy that starts the first episode off. You obviously don’t wanna skate over that. You want to sit in the emotion of that, but how do you determine you’ve been there long enough and it’s time to move on? Because you, as editors, have control of that.

NAIRN-SMITH: We’re talking about Foggies passing. All of us are fans of the show, so it meant a lot to all of us when we read these pages that Foggy was gonna die. That moment also takes place near this long oner.

Part of putting that together was figuring out where to place that in connection with the oner. When do we break that? That whole moment takes place on the sidewalk, but the action’s taking place on the roof above.

How do we balance that? There were many versions of deciding when and how long to manage that. You could put yourself at risk of being over-the-top or too saccharine in milking that moment, so there was a lot of back-and-forth with the timing of that particular sequence.

We wanted to give it its due, but we also didn’t wanna overdo it. Quite a bit of work was put into how to shape that moment.

Is there a struggle between working with a director and working with the showrunner? I’m assuming you’re sitting down with the director and they’re wanting certain things, then the director goes away and the showrunner comes in and wants something different. Or is it different on this series?

DAREDEVIL POST TEAM

FILO: Once we had our overhaul, Benson and Moorhead were our directors, but they also were executive producers, so they were working with us through the process.

They were still there to give notes through to the end, which I think in a lot of ways was helpful ‘cause we’re able to maintain their vision but also integrate the creative’s vision as well: Dario Scardapane, Sana Amanat and Brad Winderbaum.

It felt like a big collaboration between everyone. Pre-overhaul it was more working with our directors for their director cut then working exclusively with our producers.

Talk to me a little bit about intercutting. I remember at the end of the first episode, the date and the election results coming in were intercut. Talk to me about the intercutting and how scripted and how or why you chose to break away from the way it was scripted.

NAIRN-SMITH: Intercutting became a pretty popular tool for the overhaul. Scenes that were not intended to be intercut became intercut to bridge the gap between the old stories and the news stories and to create more of a sense of pace.

With most shows once you get the sequence on its feet, you see that you can actually go to the next bit sooner or later, and it becomes a fluid thing. The intercut was very useful in inter-meshing particularly in the later scenes.

The election was a lot of fun to put together. It was intercut on the page, but it became more so in the edit.

FILO: A lot of times our inter-cutting was about connecting Matt and Fisk on a character level because we could see they’re both progressing simultaneously in these different instances.

Editor Stephanie Filo, ACE

There’s a scene at the top of episode eight when Vanessa first sees Adam. To us as viewers, it’s this really toxic, strange couple situation. But for Vanessa that was a really tragic moment. At the end of the day, she is sad.

This is a big life change for her, a lot of that inter-cutting was finding the balance and trying to play out that tragic moment. I lived more within her point-of-view than anything. It was intercut with Matt and Heather having a tense spat in the kitchen.

It was a way to play out those two moments and also to live with those parallel moments where we’re trying to see Matt and Fisk and Heather and Vanessa really progressing as characters.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: For me, the parallels are a fun challenge to find, especially when it wasn’t written to the script, because a lot of times you do have connections that you weren’t really aware of until you try it.

An example of the intercut that wasn’t planned was the intercut of Gallo’s death and the Punisher with the task force.

I wasn’t sure how to approach that, but then, when I started doing it, I started getting very excited ‘cause I realized there were similarities to moments that were happening And you don’t really want to intercut unless there’s an emotional reason or you don’t want to cut unless there’s a reason.

Just as if you were cutting a dialogue scene. Why are you cutting at that moment or between those scenes?

I found moments that made sense to cut between them that connected on an emotional level, even with what those characters were going through before they were punched or before they were hit, or while they were being spoken to and what was being said to them.

It was a really big challenge, but it was very satisfying and gratifying in the end that I felt like I found connections that made it feel like it was planned and purposeful.

Editor Melisa Lawson-Cheung

Can you think of a specific example of one of those handoffs?

LAWSON-CHEUNG: At the top is when I started feeling like it was going to be possible. Fisk is speaking to his entourage of the task force and asking them questions about Gallo and questioning if they should give him slack or not. At the same time Powell with the Punisher is doing something similar.

Gallo is searching the room for someone who might help him out or he’s trying to figure out what the situation is. At the same time, the Punisher is doing the same. He’s reading the room.

He’s trying to figure out a way to get out of it or trying to scope out what the task force is after. So it’s being in the head of those two characters at the same time, while someone’s speaking to them before it ramps up to violence.

We’re in their head at the same time, maybe they’re thinking something similar at the same time before it ramps up. Once the action starts you can connect that with the action itself.

Let’s talk about the sound design of Daredevil’s audio perception?

FILO: I feel like we played with it a lot in the edit. From the first iteration it started as a tinnitus/ear-ringing thing that played underneath some reverb of the sounds. Then it evolved because John Borland, our sound designer, sent us a kit of ideas of ways to get into those moments.

Then, once Benson and Moorhead joined us, they came up with a visual style for what that would look like. That changed all of it as well in our edits where it starts as you’re hearing everything around you, then slowly it starts to whittle away until you’re honed in on that one thing.

Daredevil post team

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I think Benson and Moorhead had a lot of very specific things sound-wise as well. Cedric probably experienced that a lot with the pilot at first because that was the first to attack it.

In my first episode there’s a point where Daredevil is following Powell and some of it was shot and executed a little differently than the new team.

Finding a balance between the new visuals and connecting ’em through the sound choices was actually really helpful to find a way that made it feel like it was the same idea and balanced out in that way.

NAIRN-SMITH: I have to attribute a lot of the temp sound work that we did on the pilot to my assistant editor, Yoni Rusnak. He did an incredible job of finding his own sounds and going to that toolkit that John Borland provided and trying a lot of things.

During the director’s cut a lot of attention was paid to sound - more so than picture. There were picture notes, but a lot of it was sound, and that was something that we discussed the whole way through.

Not just Daredevil’s sensory moments, but also the environment of New York and how that felt. Music was a big topic of discussion.

Since we started talking about assistant editors. I want to give Steph and Melissa a chance to give a shout out to theirs.

FILO: My assistant editors are Lyric Ramsey and Ivan Moutinho. Steve, you might have met Lyric at some point. They’re both just amazing. Something I think is important is that my assistants should feel like they have ownership of the episodes, so something we do is watch every scene or every episode and throw out ideas and discuss what we feel like it should be.

The song at the very end of episode eight was the game changer for that episode. That’s something that Lyric happened to hear one day and thought would work at the end.

And Ivan - for all the Bullseye scenes – suggested that we lay in the drone sound that we heard in the Netflix series so that it feels like this connective tissue between the two? I feel like that really changed the way that episode played.

He does temp VFX. We had so many conversations about blood spatter and if someone launches a tooth at somebody, where would that blood go?

We just try to all work through it and make sure that we all feel like we’re contributing to this story. So shout out to them.

NAIRN-SMITH: Ivan does an incredible Fisk impersonation.

FILO: He was our ADR star.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: …To the point where the executives had no idea how we got
Vincent D’Onofrio in the booth. 

My assistants were Alexandra Scratch and Greg Hollander and they’re both wonderful. Alex actually ended up helping me with cutting some of the BB Reports. It’s a separate style of editing for the BB Report, and she helped me put those together, and is accredited as an additional editor on that.

Then Greg’s sound design on the fight sequences were amazing. It sounds like how it would air when we’re showing it in our first showing.

It’s incredible work. He’s very meticulous. He’s adding every little layer you can think of with “efforts” that he can find and steal from other areas, and impacts. There are many layers of sound effects in there, and it just sounds incredible.

Can you explain what an “effort” is?

LAWSON-CHEUNG: An “effort” is the actor’s response or grunt to the hit itself. You’d be amazed how not very cool it sounds if those aren’t in there.

It’s not just punches and impacts. You also need verbal audio.

I wanna talk about episode 108. For example, how you decide to come into a scene. The obvious choices is to start on a wide shot. And often that’s a great choice because it gives you geography. It lets you know where everybody is in the room. I loved an opening shot of the mayor’s fingers caressing the desk at the beginning of one of those scenes. Talk about that choice of starting close instead of on an establishing shot. When do you do that and when do you not do that?

FILO: I think the footage kind of dictates it for you sometimes, but in that instance he is talking about how that’s LaGuardia’s desk, so it just felt like a fun way to get us into that moment. I can’t remember what it comes off of.

I think maybe it’s Matt learning that Fisk released Poindexter into Gen Pop. So Matt is really troubled, then you see Fisk talking about this desk and the juxtaposition is weird. I just wanted to play with the weirdness of that.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: There’s a thing with hands that they started in episode two. They connected the hands between Matt and Fisk. It’s a theme throughout to show their emotion through their hands.

FILO: With Vanessa’s relationship with Adam she talks about how amazing his hands are, so Fisk is extra self-conscious about his hands throughout.

NAIRN-SMITH: I would say how to start a scene is probably one of the most difficult decisions to make after you’ve watched all the dailies and then you just say to yourself, “Where do I start this scene?”

It’s not always the case, but for me, whenever I try to start a scene, I think, “What’s the most unexpected or what’s something that keeps you on your toes as opposed to just something that feels stock and ordinary?”

It’s not always the case that you’re presented with something that can get you into a scene in a novel way, but that’s always the goal: to find something that’s not.

You’ve also got the process of that. You choose a shot to start a scene, but once you’ve got all your scenes cut together, then things can change.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: You have to circle back, especially for how they connect.

NAIRN-SMITH: Just recently I cut a whole scene then I realized how the previous scene ends, and I knew that the opening wouldn’t work anymore.

I just rewatched a scene that I cut recently and thought, “Now it doesn’t work ‘cause we just ended a scene doing something else and the whole design of it doesn’t really work.”

LAWSON-CHEUNG: That’s why sometimes I just don’t really pay attention to my first pass very much ‘cause I know things will change later and if you spend too much time on that, you’re just going to run out of time.

You have time management to think about. You know that opening is probably going be altered later, so why noodle with it for too long?

Editor Cedric Nairn-Smith

Cedric was mentioning the collaborative nature of working with multiple editors. What kind of interaction are you having? Obviously, scenes are sometimes getting passed between you. Are you watching each other’s episodes? Speaking into each other’s scenes?

FILO: There’s one character that’s not in the show anymore. Cedric and I both had this character in our episodes and we were trying to figure out a way to thread it together. So I feel like we had a lot of conversations about that character in particular.

Then for eight and nine - post overhaul - Melissa and I watched each other’s things ‘cause eight and nine kind of feel like sibling episodes in a way, so let’s make sure that the tone matches.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: We had time too, because of the overhaul and because of the strikes, the schedule was a little different.

So now with multiple episodes all happening at the same time it’s hard to take time to do that. It would be lovely to do it more. We end up doing it naturally with the executives.

They invite us all to the screening so that we can make sure the tone is consistent. So that’s one way to make sure it fits into our schedule as we watch when there are reviews with notes, so then we hear the notes and we hear what people are trying to thread through all the episodes together.

But I think it’s usually based on character. If we have a character that we know is gonna get affected later or are they staying in the episode or anything like that we end up having to talk about it because what they’re doing is going to affect our episode with that character.

That’s usually when we end up having to discuss things.

I called Cedric a couple weeks ago ‘cause I was wondering what was going on with this character?

FILO: Also, B roll. I feel like last season we had a lot of B-roll. We’d think, “This is a great shot!” Then we’d realize it’s in four other episodes, so we had a lot of back and forth on that as well.

Editors Melissa Lawson-Cheung and Stephanie Filo, ACE

Do you have to do rock, paper, scissors on who got to keep the shot?

LAWSON-CHEUNG: We’d duke it out later.

In episode 108 let’s discuss when you chose to do a little transition shot between scenes and when do you just cut without a transition?

FILO: 108 has minimal B-roll transitions. If I recall, there’s a day-to-night transition, then maybe one a little earlier when it’s raining. We had minimal in that episode because that’s where Matt’s kind of getting unhinged.

That’s his last progression up until the end at the gala. I think we were really intentional in like how much B-roll we wanted to use in that episode versus the others. I don’t think there’s any BB Reports in episode eight either.

It needed to be really paced up and move quickly. Sometimes if you’re deep within B-roll for too long, you lose the tension that’s building and it just really needed to feel like we’re watching Matt.

He’s really tense in this scene and then he’s suddenly rushing out and headed to the next thing, so it felt organically like it needed a little less.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Sometimes it’s fun to figure out if there’s a way within the footage you have and the scenes to not use an establishing shot. But it’s nice to have as a crutch if you need it.

FILO: There are a couple shots in 108 that look like B-roll shots, but they’re actually part of the scene. When it’s raining there’s a far away shot where Matt is standing with his umbrella, but other people are crossing and you don’t register that it’s him, so we just tried to organically live with those beats.

The shot with the umbrella might have been one that I thought was B-roll. Melissa, you cut episode nine. Talk to me about working with dueling directors.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Yes. They’ve worked on indie films together since college so they come together as a duo. I’m not sure how they do it, but somehow they come up with notes that they seem to agree on without discussing them.

They’re not side-barring. My guess is that they discuss a lot ahead of time so that they’re on the same page when they have notes ‘cause their music and their sound and their picture notes all seem to come from the same place. When one of them gives a note, the other doesn’t disagree.

They seem to add on to it as if it was their idea. I think they just have a very similar sensibility and aesthetic and it works really well. It’s a beautiful sensibility. It’s really great for Daredevil. It has a really great moodiness to it that lends itself to the world.

What about the BB Report montage Before Kingpin addresses the city.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: My thought there was with the unrest of the city, and she was giving interviews and people were talking about their views. After that night, there’s no one on the streets and no one to interview.

So that was the empty streets, which I think the directors had planned on. It’s just a BB Report in the eyes of the audience. She’s giving you the mood of the city without any interviews. Where is everybody and how do they feel? They don’t even want to talk about it.

NAIRN-SMITH: A lot of that footage came from these filmmakers Sean Dunn and Cass Marie Greener. Their production company is called Very Ape, and they’ve done a lot of these really personal and deep documentaries that you can find on YouTube.

It was Justin and Aaron’s idea to bring them in to shoot the B-roll footage. It definitely gave the show a unique quality - very gritty and boots on the ground in New York. It was a unique way to incorporate B-roll into the show. I just wanted to give a shout out to Very Ape.

The one documentary they did in Florida was really intense. They also did one where they went to the gathering of the Juggalos, which is Insane Cloud Posse.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: The directors knew them and wanted them to come on board to do that. It was a really smart move ‘cause it gave us such unique footage.

Was that just for the BB footage or for all of the B-roll?

LAWSON-CHEUNG: It was actually one and the same. They did both for us.

I noticed jump cuts in episode 109. What is the purpose of them and do you feel like you need to do jump cuts early so that you’ve established that grammar or does it not really matter?

LAWSON-CHEUNG: We did establish a grammar since I saw Cedric had some jumps in episode one. That was part of our aesthetic. Whenever I do it, it’s usually for an emotional impact.

When you’re talking about the slow motion shots at the end, if that was playing real time and without any cuts, I don’t think the emotion would be quite as impactful without having the abrupt shift either in their expression or movement.

It gives you a certain emotional response to the cut itself and to what and to how they’re responding in the footage itself.

I love playing with that. I know not everybody is into that as a technique. I think any technique is only something you wanna use when it makes sense for the story and for the emotional moment you’re working on.

It allowed us to see different aspects of those characters. I could cut away to different characters and cut back to them, but it doesn’t have the same emotional response if you cut away to someone then back to them.

It’s a different emotion. It’s different when you see their shift of even their mannerism changing, knowing that they’re uncomfortable cutting away and cutting back doesn’t have that same impact. You don’t feel the uncomfortable uneasiness of their demeanor, in my opinion.

Melissa and Stephanie

FILO: At least in episodes four and five in particular, I know we used it to enhance the mystery of it. For example, there’s a long walkup to the Punishers lair in episode four.

Once we started utilizing jump cuts throughout the series just to see if it would work, it added an element of tension and mystery.

He’s walking up this really long hallway. We don’t know where it is, but we’re cutting between all of these different corners of that lair. So it added to the mystery of it. We did the same in 105 as he’s walking between different spaces at the bank heist episode.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Even in a sensory moment where you’re coming closer to Matt as his senses get closer and closer you were aware. You heard Powell talking and then you cut in closer down the street each time you go to Matt.

And a speed-ramp had a similar effect, but it didn’t feel quite as polished. It also allowed for some cool sound shifts as well, of someone walking and then a car passing.”

NAIRN-SMITH: In the first scene after the tragedy, Matt’s going through his apartment. We jump him through his apartment. I even like messy camera work, which I don’t think we use a lot in the show.

I don’t think it’s really the language of our show, but I like to do things that are messy and that almost look like a miscut, because I think when you watch it, you think, “Was that intentional?” It just keeps you on your toes and you don’t really know what you’ve just seen. They do it in The Brutalist a couple times.

You think, “Why did they do that?” Immediately you’ve won. You’ve put someone on their toes and they’re second-guessing what they just saw, but it just engages you in a way where you’re not just passively watching something.

Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmaker do it all the time. I love messy camera work. I don’t wanna say they’re messy cuts, but it just feels alive. I feel like it engages the audience more and it just feels emotional rather than a perfect piece of cut picture.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I think our directors are open to that. It is right that it’s not really the language of our show, but there’s sometimes where they actually like the feeling of the camera walking up to the character.

If we had time to make the shows longer, there would’ve been moments of that. There was a beautiful one walking up to John Bernthal as the Punisher in 109. But you end up needing to make it a watchable length so you have to cut out some gems.

Was there previs? I saw a previs company in the credits.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I didn’t have it in two and three, but for the fight sequences we had postvis. They add the grappling hook and thing flying around in 109.

There are a lot of Daredevil’s tools that end up getting added. It’s really helpful for timing and for screenings to have them add that.

NAIRN-SMITH: I’m gonna take this opportunity to mention my other assistant, Travis Olson. If we didn’t have time to get sequences to our postvis team, Travis, who I started working with on a previous show, along with Yani, he’s like my ace for those temp VFX.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Ivan and Travis, they’ve been borrowed and they’re amazing.

It’s interesting to hear the way assistants can make themselves invaluable, whether that’s VFX or sound design. Is there anything else that you can think of if you’re trying to have somebody step into your chair - what is it that makes you think this person’s ready to step up into the chair?

Avid timeline for episode 109

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Helping cut scenes. Making time to somehow fit that into our schedule is a big one ‘cause that’s where you can really show your talents. There’s always the recap as well.

I was gonna say the “previously ons” is a pretty typical AE thing. Did your AEs get to cut “previously ons”?

FILO: They did. Also, for me, I think a keen sense of story and a willingness to collaborate on it and talk through different ideas. I think that also gives you a sign of when an AE is ready to make that jump too. If they have a sense of what you’re all trying to achieve.

Aside from cutting scenes, someone who’s eager to talk about it or someone who’s as into it as you are.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I’ll ask my assistants to tell me if they see a mistake.  Because if it looks like a mistake, that means maybe it’s not working. Also, I have a lot to do, so I very well could have made a mistake.

NAIRN-SMITH: Commonly I’ll bring Yoni and Travis into the room and just watch a scene with them or a reel with them. I gauge - without even speaking with them - if something is working or not. 

I rely on them quite a bit for those moments, then after I’ve shown it to them, I’ll go to Steph and Melissa, and see if it passes that test as well. But I always like to share scenes with them just to get their feedback. It’s always good to have another set of eyes.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: That happens with us naturally. That’s why you have different episodes or different scenes and you come back two days later and you think, “What was I thinking? What am I doing here?”

Avid timeline locked cut episode 105

I hear that a lot. Were you editing in a studio or were you editing at home or a little hybrid?

FILO: Hybrid. A lot of times we would come in for notes sessions or to work with our directors or our producers, then sometimes at home doing notes.

NAIRN-SMITH: I prefer to go in. We’re afforded this luxury to have both, which is incredible, but I like to go to the office and be there with Yoni and Travis. I like the immediate feedback and I have two dogs that bark at anything, so I can’t really get into the zone.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I have two kids that bark at anything, so I have to sometimes leave the zone too.

FILO: For me, I like being in the cone of silence at home, even though I have a barky dog, but he just sleeps all day.

Lyric, Steph and Ivan

Let’s talk about a scene that we have not covered yet for each one of you that either was a tremendous challenge or that you’re very proud of.

FILO: My most challenging scene doesn’t exist in the show anymore, so I can’t tell you about it, but I think the scene that I’m most proud of is actually the whole back of episode eight - the gala sequence.

I think as editors so much of our work is trying to match the intention of what was written and the tone and the vibe of what’s on the page.

That episode really feels like we achieved that, so I’m really proud of it. It was all because of the massive collaboration that it was to get it there from Benson and Moorhead’s vision up to our creatives and my assistant editor, Lyric, finding this game-changing song at the end.

Or Ivan bringing his A game to the sound. Talking to our post PA about music and our post sup about music and trying to figure out what kind of music would play during the gala sequence. Our music sup sending us stuff constantly to play with.

Our VFX team brought their A game. Our finishing team brought their A game with the final color. I’m just so proud of how that gala turned out. It’s low key one of my favorite episodes of TV that  I’ve cut.

Tien Nguyen, Daredevil Born Again post supervisor

LAWSON-CHEUNG: That reminds me, we should thank Tien Nguyen, our post supervisor, for being our therapist through all of this.

FILO: I think equally for each of us.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: It’s funny ‘cause Steph and I have a similar feeling towards our last episodes ‘cause episode nine is also my favorite project.

I was very excited when I read the new scripts for this season, and I became a really big fan of the characters, Karen and Frank and Matt, and how they’re connected and how emotionally they feel towards each other.

So I was really excited to play with those emotions and those characters and how they interact together. And to see them finally together again was very exciting to me. The fight sequence was very exciting as well, but I think when it comes to a challenge, I kept going back to the Frank and Karen looks.

That scene meant a lot to me because I didn’t want to betray Matt, but I also wanted to give them their due time of reconnection without any words. That was a really fun challenge. Matt’s response to it was playful enough where I felt like it was respectful, but also meaningful.

NAIRN-SMITH: I would say the diner scene between Matt and Kingpin. The actors brought their A game to that scene. In that particular scene they were really bringing it and it was the way it was shot as well. It just cut together so easily.

Days later I thought, “Did I do the best I could with that scene?” I tried to recut it, and I realized I was breaking it. I think the scene that I’m really proud of is the intercut bike sequence in 106 when Matt is fighting with Muse and Kingpin is beating up Vanessa’s lover.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: It’s funny that you guys both mentioned those scenes ‘cause those are my favorites that you guys edited. I remember reading the gala scene and being so excited for you to do it because you have the dance background and getting to do a dancing episode with those characters and how sexy it would be to have this reveal happening as they were having to dance closely together.

You did a beautiful job. And Cedric, I remember telling you, “Don’t touch that scene. You got it!”

It is interesting when you cut it right the first time and you think, maybe I should recut it and it doesn’t work as well. It’s easy to talk about the excitement about fight scenes and action, but what about dialogue scenes?

NAIRN-SMITH: What Melissa did in the courtroom scenes was incredible. It was like being in a fever dream because so many things are happening in those sequences, and the dialogue just keeps moving.

You’re not waiting for responses and everything’s happening all at once. It’s like you just keep the dialogue moving. All the cutaways work in a way that makes sense. I thought the way Melissa did that was beautiful.

As far as using coverage, you don’t have to use everything. It’s better not to, or to just use a piece of coverage for the very end so that it’s something that the audience hasn’t seen before. It keeps you off guard, I think if you’re using everything at the same time, you get used to what you’re looking at, so saving a setup for the end is a good idea.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: I feel like so much of it is reactions too. That’s why when you watch dailies only going to the dialogue it’s painful because you don’t get to edit and you’re not really feeling productive, but you’re actually finding those moments for the dialogue scenes that will bring it all together because somebody gave a look that is exactly what you needed for that dialogue to be interesting and be heard more.

So if you’re just seeing the person say it, it might not be heard as well as if you’re seeing someone react to that same dialogue. For the court scenes, what’s interesting is I had cut that all together and I was using the jury quite a bit to cut away for emotion.

Benson and Moorhead came in and said, “Try to do the same thing, but with just our characters so that we’re living in our characters.”

So I reexamined it and redid it without showing the jury really at all - just keeping them alive with some shots that had them in the foreground and out of focus and so that we can get the idea of who they’re talking to. It still worked, but on a whole ‘nother level of stronger emotions because we knew these characters and we felt connected to them.

Cedric mentioned seeing something in The Brutalist that inspired him. Has there been anything that you have seen that you thought, “I’ve gotta try that” or “That was so powerful!” It’s almost like a muse.

NAIRN-SMITH: The Place Beyond the Pines was something that I was watching on repeat when we were working on the pilot. The way it’s structured and the cutting in there really inspired me when I was cutting the pilot.

I know it seems totally unrelated, but it was something that I was really drawing inspiration from. Also, we were using that score in the early days.

The score has gone through a huge transformation, and people who are listening to this would say, “I don’t see any connection whatsoever.” But tt’s something that inspired me at the time.

Melissa and Steph

LAWSON-CHEUNG: The original series inspired me too. The editing on the first season was beautifully done - not that it wasn’t the other seasons - but that was the one that really stuck in my mind. There was seamless editing  - a closeup popped to a wide or vice versa, which I don’t utilize very often.

I thought, “They really got that down!” It’s not just the same camera angle popping in. They found different takes with movement or emotional changes that allowed for it to just work seamlessly in a really cool manner. That was in my head a little bit to pay homage to the original team.

FILO: To Cedric’s point about score, there’s a movie called Eo, it’s about a donkey, and it’s not at all like our show, but I played a lot with the Eo score in season one.

There’s one really haunting string cue that I laid under all the Bullseye moments and the final score ended up strings for him as well. It just felt like it lent itself to that: the eeriness of the character.

Then also a movie called Red Dot that I feel like not a lot of people have seen, but it’s the perfect temp score ‘cause it works under everything. It works under tension. It works under drama.

Thank you all for joining me on Art of the Cut.

LAWSON-CHEUNG: Thank you for entertaining me on my way to work every day!

FILO: Thank you for having us.